We’d Like Liberty and Tolerance Too

There’s an illiberal and intolerant smoking ban in France too. So after coming across a headline in the Guardian which read:

‘France will shout its love for liberty and tolerance.’

I did this:

About Frank Davis

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71 Responses to We’d Like Liberty and Tolerance Too

  1. Im starting to wonder have some of our pro smoking folks been bought off by the vaping companies. Its truly looking that way and they are adamant about this conjured up harm reduction promotional stunt anymore. Its like a new attack plan by vapors thinking they can still slide in with the Nazis and then they leave us smokers to the Nazi onslaught of exaggerated claims. Even when they all know the Nazis are after them worse than they are smokers anymore. Somethings up.

    • I got kicked off NYC CLASH for basically no reason at all. Then the vaping crowd that’s basically took over the boards on facebook slowy at first and then suddenly they are befriending all the activist smokers over the last year. Now I have a few heated debates with a few of the top vapor folks who are actually bosses at a german vaping company and they play along only so far and then they fully start backing the Nazis……….

      For a small portion of the market they have become very fanatical of late not to say they weren’t before. I do believe they have hired several anti-smoking activists into their companies too in the last few years.

      Im still trying to put my finger on it……………..

      • Could be Clash is getting some funding from them,I don’t know.

        • Trust me at first I wouldn’t go and fight for them for nothing just because they always sided with anti-tobacco against us smokers until I saw they were being attacked the same as us. It took awhile and then I even started fighting for them along the way as I found it.

          But now its different I believe they’ve started funding some of our own folks to get them to follow the vapor harm reduction strategy. Our point is always what proof of harm,their dogma demands their be harm,less there be no reduced harm reduction strategy. That’s whats missing from our own folks mouths anymore a few not many,its just what Ive noticed.

        • waltc says:

          I have no idea (yet) why you were kicked off Clash –haven’t been there in a while– but insinuating that Audrey was bought is a step too far. Her integrity is unquestionable and it’s beneath you to question it. Further, I’d imagine that whatever vapers Clash has attracted are the smart ones who see the crocodile swimming rapidly towards them and understand their fate is the same as smokers’, so it’s they who join her, not the other way around. That aside, I agree with Jax’s appraisal below though, watching the crocodile’s head-on advance, I’m mostly just amused.

        • No walt I don’t know they got funding I said I thought they might have as they are running a collection to keep the parks fight up which I whole heartedly agree with.

          Audrey thought I was to political on a few words a few to many times. The final straw was on a story that Anne Coulter did that had a paragraph in it that had one word in it ” Left”

          I never bothered to think anything of it and I had reposted the whole paragraph with the word ”LEFT” still in it. She went nuke on me that I did it purposely to offend her other members………

          I said you have got to be kidding me, a simple word ”left” is going to so offend your members that I need to be banned.

          I then said perhaps they need a class in de-sensitivity then and perhaps they should read Mikes wall of death and the graveyard to see what it is we are fighting.

          Being so easily offended is the problem.

          Then the vaping crowd has basically moved in and its all about harm reduction now. Not all of it but all to much of it. That’s why I say they might have gotton a bit of funding and I hope they do to keep the fight up. But we aren’t getting any help when vapors continue to push the Nazis tobacco related disease crap which is exactly what they are doing!

          An enemy within.

        • beobrigitte says:

          Harley, the vaping crowd is far more diverse than we are; here just 3 of them:

          A – Some of them have been scared into believing the anti-smokers’ nonsense and vaping – unlike the peddled ‘cures’ substituted their cigarettes. They start off with e-liquid that that has the highest nicotine content for fear of a lapse. They gradually reduce the nicotine content of their e-liquid but they worry about it being too low… Their aim is to also stop vaping.

          B – Some of them don’t give a **** about the anti-smokers’ babble; they simply decided to try e-cigs and stuck with them. They gradually reduce the nicotine content of their e-liquid but they are usually not too fuzzed about this. They have no idea if they will at some point stop vaping; they have replaced their cigarettes with an e-cig and that’s it.

          C – Some of them continue to smoke as well.
          I belong to this group. My reason for using an e-cig is that I refuse to pay the extortionate tax levied on my tobacco in England for as long as I am kicked out of pubs etc. if I wish to smoke.
          I travel a lot, so I bring back a good tobacco supply – and I do get a lot of visitors from e.g. Germany, bringing me tobacco.
          It has been 1 year this month since I bought my last pouch of tobacco in England.

          However, there is one group which has great interest in creating a major divide between smokers and vapers. TOBACCO CONTROL.
          How many times have anti-smokers posted comments pretending to be smokers? They sure do the same as vapers! An added bonus for them is that the vapers of group A respond alongside their view. There are no scared smokers embroiled in a ‘battle’ on the net with the anti-smoking zealots, they are the smokers standing up to them.

          I personally defend vaping as much as I do smoking. Vapers are far more vulnerable, it is a relatively new thing which tobacco control tries to nip in the bud. A lot of us have smoked for 40 years+ with no ill effect. We will not be bowled over as easily as people who have vaped for e.g. 4 years.

          That’s how we win. Fighting the Nazis when nobody else was around doing any fighting back when I came along save a few and I mean a very few it was an effective way to fight back and help educate the public against the propaganda. It still works today. That’s what I mean by guerilla tactics.

          Harley, you are right. Not long ago I asked for the smoking room at an English airport. I was told that it was outside – and too far to catch my connecting flight.
          The guy made the mistake to point out that “I’m telling my dad every day to stop smoking – he should give the money he spends on cigarettes to me. You’ll survive”. So I told him (biggest smile on my face):
          “I KNOW I will survive, after all, I am still here and perfectly fine. I’m just not so sure about you. Aren’t you supposed to be old enough to fend for yourself? Do you still rely on your parents to fund your life style? At your age???? At least my kids can look after themselves! Thank you, anyway, for the information.”

          In real life things are slightly different: we are looking into each other’s eyes. The youngster was baffled to see a highly amused smoker!!! I stand my ground politely, but I stand my ground.

          I know I will return to my average citizen’s life when this smoking ban nonsense has been brought to an end.

      • mikef317 says:

        Harley, re being banned, let me start by saying that you have exceptionally good scientific knowledge about smoking. You seem to search the web daily and comment on anything that involves tobacco, providing an opposing view to Tobacco Control zealots.

        Great, but…. You are a “serial” commenter.

        If I do a search for “This pretty well destroys the Myth of second hand smoke” I get 9,000 hits, under multiple names. Are these all yours? I suspect they are (but I haven’t opened every one).

        A while back Frank posted commenter stats on his blog. He could supply exact numbers, but as I recall, you post more comments than all other commenters put together.

        How much is enough?

        When I comment, I write my own words. (In English, with paragraphs, sentences, and commas, and even [imperfectly] using a spellchecker.) If I’m off topic, I say so. On topic, I try to add to the conversation. I don’t paste the full text of a link – I provide the link and maybe a few words of explanation. Readers may open the link or not, depending on their interest. I may or may not respond if other commenters disagree with what I’ve said.

        I spent over an hour writing this (and should have spent several more), and I’m only addressing the topic of why you might be banned from any number of websites. When I read your comments, I find them extremely sloppy. You write a few words of comment, and then do several comments under the first comment. You write a few words of your own, and then continue with a long paste of something somebody else wrote, and then do another comment to provide a link, or yet another comment.

        I’m not (and never will be) on Facebook, so I don’t know why Audrey Silk may or may have not banned you – but, hell, if I had a blog, I might ban you – not because I disagree with your opinions on smoking – but because of serial commenting, off topic posts, and really bad writing.

        Again, I don’t want to offend you, but I’d suggest a few less comments and much better writing. This might result in fewer bans.

        • Its quite easy to see you know nothing of guerilla tactics. Im not a university grad with the ability to pull up 5 dollar words as needed. I find the best things and pull them together to attack the enemy wherever they are. Its directly attacking there junk science and then spread to word to the rest if they want to join in.

          If you actually ever did count hits Ive done I nor you could ever count them.

          Theres to many after 7 years of daily fighting. You ever been committed to destroying the enemy or just toying with them because they happen to be of your political persuasion.

          I fight those who hate us. If you see a problem with that I suggest a trip to Franks smokers graveyard or Mikes wall of death down below.

          I wont compromise I have no need to, Im right! Just like the rest of us that fight back!

        • carol2000 says:

          Re Harley being banned, I agree with you completely. In the old days, they used to ban pro-smokers just for daring to talk back, but it’s rare nowadays, especially on websites aimed at the general public. Harley’s so-called “guerilla tactics” make things difficult for all the other commenters, pro-smokers included. The bottom line is, don’t make yourself so obnoxious that everyone will heave a sigh of relief when it happens.

        • Carol by guerilla tactics Im talking about posting one or 2 comments prepared at any and all anti-smoking stories. All of them. You cant just hit one,you hit them all. That way you cover the most ground and damage to the enemy in a single attack. Besides getting the other sides message out. It helps to quickly help educate folks that before got nothing but what the Nazis fed them and puts the Nazis on defense. Its why the Nazis did that comments are effective study.

          Then we get some large battles like NOLA going on occasionally. You noticed it quick enuf they gave up and wouldn’t even debate the subject going st8 to name calling and BT workers…….

          They lost and gave up. It went to nearly 700 comments. Weve had some that went to over 2000 comments before. But we stayed the pace and never gave up an inch.

          That’s how we win. Fighting the Nazis when nobody else was around doing any fighting back when I came along save a few and I mean a very few it was an effective way to fight back and help educate the public against the propaganda. It still works today. That’s what I mean by guerilla tactics.

        • Barry Homan says:

          For one thing, I’ve always admired harley’s doggedness, the sheer brute strength, time and effort he puts into all he does – he and I are not cut from the same cloth. I’m lucky if I can just get through reading the posts here on a daily basis, as well as some (but not all) of the links.

          I sure don’t have the stamina that harley has, nor the intellectual reflection, formulation and articulation that Frank and others posses, nor the leadership qualities of an Audrey Silk; I think it’s amazing all the info harley has compiled, he’s a fighter, he’s tenacious and more than committed – but I would (softly) maybe remark on his proofreading his script a little more, before he posts. Still, harley has, in my eyes, assumed the proportions of an army here, and elsewhere (get there firstest with the mostest!) and shows no signs of quitting – an example there for all of us.

        • Edgar says:

          @Barry H. My thoughts almost exactly. As for mikef317 and carol, the sooner they get their heads out of their arses the better for all of us.

  2. jaxthefirst says:

    I think you’re right, Harley. I think that a lot of people who turn to vaping instead of smoking go the same way as genuine ex-smokers do, i.e. they witter on beforehand until the cows come home with all that guff about “Of course, I’m not going to become one of those dreadful reformed-smoker types” but then, eventually (with a few very, very rare exceptions) they start saying/doing anti-smoker things – no more smoking in their houses for visitors, snide little comments about people who still smoke, that look of surprise if you haven’t seen them for a while when you light up. You know the sort of thing.

    It seems that, even if a person replaces smoking with vaping they’ll eventually “turn anti,” seemingly without even realising it, a bit like real ex-smokers do. You can even tell when a previously pro-smoking blogger switches, because their blogs almost entirely focus on all the nasty rules and regulations proposed for e-cigarettes without even so much as an acknowledgement along the lines of “Well, we’ve all been here before, folks, from our smoking days, so let’s get a step ahead of the banners” – which would actually be one of the most forceful arguments they could bring to bear in encouraging their vaping friends to fight the proposed restrictions, rather than rushing around like chickens with their heads cut off as if this is a brand-new fight that no-one’s ever experienced before, spouting out all the same old arguments as smokers did in the early days to absolutely no effect. And it won’t be any different for them this time around either, of course – unless they adopt a very different approach, the banners will simply run roughshod over all their protestations.

    It seems that being an ex-smoker of either the real or vaping variety leads to a sort of enforced amnesia which won’t help them in the long run, whereas recalling the early manoeuvres of the anti (real) smoking brigade would, if only they’d see it.

    • I also noticed a few others on clash that had nailed the vapors for being well wearing 2 coats and dint trust them not around anymore. Ive never bashed vapors for vaping could care less I find it a passing trend. Yesterday I went to a new bingo hall as we can smoke in all of them but there was about 500 people in there and only one vaped,thats it just one and she only did it once and then lit up a regular smoke. I tell ya I never saw so much vapor steam in one cloud in my life. Im talking like a steam locomotive. Oh it disappeared soon enuf but the cloud would have equaled an easy 40 smokers at the same table at one time and so thick you couldn’t even see thru the cloud.

      I just feel things are coming to a head pretty soon. Moneys running short for government and they need ever niclke they can steal. Ecigs provide no revenue to the government its one biggest failure to surviving. The government loves revenue generators tobacco wins everytime even if they have to lower the taxes to defeat the blackmarket. They still bring in 100s of billions in revenues.

    • prog says:

      A lot of them are smug buggers, as if they’ve achieved something ‘weak’ smokers haven’t. But this is more or less typical of many ex-smokers. Funny thing is, they’re still addicted to nicotine and rely on faux smoke to make themselves look cool (but fail imo). I have vaped, but not in public since the novelty value wore off. I just think it looks slightly pathetic, esp among older folk.That’s not to say I don’t agree with it – each to his/her own.

      • nisakiman says:

        Yes, I’d agree, prog. There is definitely a whiff of the righteous ex-smoker among many (although not all) vapers.

        I have a couple of e-cigs (not the lookalike variety) which I find ok, but don’t use very often. However, they are handy for some situations, like the one I’m in right now, where my wife is in hospital having just had an operation, and of course the Thai establishment being great supporters of the FCTC has banned smoking anywhere on the premises or grounds (not that the grounds amount to much – it’s in central Bangkok, and goes up 22 floors as there’s no room to spread outwards). So here I am, sitting at my laptop in our private room, my red wine decanted into a Coke bottle (no alcohol on the premises either, but it looks just like the real thing!) and my e-cig parked next to it. I can go out to the street for a real ciggy, but we’re on the 12th floor and it’s a bit of a pain, so having the e-cig is really very handy.

        As an aside, the room actually has a balcony with sliding doors to it, but the door is locked. When I asked them to open it, I was told it is ‘against hospital policy’ (WTF? Why build a hospital with balconies, then?); and I’ll wager that that policy came into effect soon after they banned smoking because the visitors were nipping out onto the balcony for a smoke. Oh, the horror! Lock the doors so the stressed-out relatives can’t nip out for a smoke! Arseholes. And I actually abhor air-conditioning, too (fucks up my sinuses something rotten), and would be much more comfortable if I could have the sliding door open. And needless to say, I’m paying a fucking fortune for all this. (Less than I would in Europe, though, it has to be said).

        So my attitude to e-cigs is somewhat ambivalent. I see them as a great and innovative invention, but I resent the born-again vapers’ condescending attitude to those of us who choose to continue enjoying the natural product, and their hypocritical adoption of the ANTZ rhetoric.

        • I resent the born-again vapers’ condescending attitude to those of us who choose to continue enjoying the natural product, and their hypocritical adoption of the ANTZ rhetoric.

          TY that’s what I was trying to put into words………my sentiments exactly.

          The biggest problem is they don’t want the smoking bans repealed, because that’d mean an end to the created need for their products for smokers to side step the stupid bans.

          Now their getting banned everywhere too. But rather than join with the smokers and get off the harm reduction BS and move their products in a world that is finally freed of the smoking bans and make them a product for smokers to and compete in general with tobacco they just look at it as a niche market for the time the smoking bans last.

          I don’t think they care at all to even stay in business after the bans get repealed.

        • prog says:

          Harley, sadly it’s in the best commercial interests of vape makers/retailers that smoking bans in public enclosed spaces are not relaxed. A crucial part of their business relies on smoking bans – in other words that smokers, vapers, TPTB and the general public accept that SHS poses a threat to the health of non-smokers. Odour aside, the main excuse for vaping in public enclosed spaces is that emissions are harmless to non-smokers compared to tobacco smoke.

          Whilst one could accept that the original reason for e-cigs was to reduce harm to smokers it didn’t take long before the passive smoking junk science was cynically exploited to boost sales. Justified, of course, by smoking bans. A lot, but not all, vapers are happy to go along with this. It’s ironic that the anti-smoking vapers now find themselves potentially exiled outdoors along with the rest of us. I genuinely sympathise for the more enlightened but they’re scarce on the ground.

        • smokingscot says:

          “Why build a hospital with balconies, then?”

          Big problem now. Understandably.

          Do tell if you can open the windows wide? Wide enough to jump?

          This is the most famous of a recent spate. Regrettably I can fully understand why he did so.


          (If you can’t access the link in Thailand, the guy committed suicide by jumping from a fifth floor window at age 95 with terminal prostrate cancer. Now that should chuff our good Doctor – we savaged a couple of days back – no end).

          But locked windows don’t deter everyone. This chap just smashed it. But he was British.


        • nisakiman says:


          Yes, the windows are in fact sliding doors that give access to the balcony. I can quite understand that hospitals want to avoid the unpleasantness of mopping up bodies that have just fallen 15 stories or so (not to mention the bad publicity :¬0), but I would have thought it not so difficult to identify the high-risk patients and perhaps take measures to ensure they don’t have access to the balcony. Instead, we have a situation where there is a possibility that an infinitesimally small percentage of hospital patients may try to take their own lives, so the reaction is to deny the other 99.999999999999999999999% of patients access to the balconies as well. Although I shouldn’t be surprised in this fanatically risk-averse world we seem to have stumbled into. Gross overreaction has become the default response to any and every perceived shadow of risk.

          I was able to access the Hollywood Reporter link, but not the Daily Mail one. Not being able to access the DM links is not in itself any great loss, but the whole principle of censorship here really angers me.

    • Rose says:

      I think that a lot of people who turn to vaping instead of smoking go the same way as genuine ex-smokers do

      I have always been interested in the case of the rabid ex-smoker and wondered what happened, the case of the rabid vaper fines down the search a little more.

      The vaper only has the nicotine left , the ex-smoker doesn’t even have that.
      I can’t help wondering if losing the recently discovered MAO inhibitor naphthoquinone that seems to act as a mild antidepressant and has nothing to do with the nicotine, might be the cause.

      But that’s once again putting it all down to one plant chemical which is an anti-tobacco trick, so I’m quite prepared to accept that it’s a combination of various missing elements.

      • Rose says:

        Oh, so they do know, but it looks very different put like this.

        Further development of the partial guidelines for implementation of Articles 9 and 10 of the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control

        3. What makes tobacco products addictive?

        *Addictiveness is sometimes referred to as dependence liability or addictive potential.

        “While research shows that nicotine, the main alkaloid found in tobacco leaves, may not be the only substance in tobacco that affects its addictiveness, at least in smoked products, no other substance in tobacco that has this effect has been conclusively identified”

        “Researchers have found a marked decrease in the levels of monoamine oxidase (MAO) in the brains and peripheral organs of smokers
        . MAO is an important enzyme responsible for breaking down dopamine. The decrease in MAO results in higher dopamine levels and may be another reason that smokers continue to smoke, i.e. to sustain the high dopamine levels that lead to the desire for repeated drug use. It has been suggested that this change is likely to be caused by a substance in tobacco smoke other than nicotine. Certain tobacco constituents are reported to be MAO inhibitors,”

        including napthoquinone

        Click to access FCTC_COP5_9-en.pdf

        That’s rather cruel, to know, but to try to force people to give up without offering a proper substitute.

        Why the wicked weed wards off Parkinson’s

        “A SUBSTANCE that may protect the brain against Parkinson’s disease has been found in tobacco smoke, a discovery that could shed light on the causes of this debilitating condition.

        Researchers have known for decades that smokers are less likely to develop Parkinson’s than non-smokers, but not why. Four years ago, however, Joanna Fowler of Brookhaven National laboratory in New York showed that in long-term smokers a brain enzyme called monoamine oxidase (MAO) is 40 per cent less active.

        The hallmarks of Parkinson’s disease tremors and a shuffling gait—are thought to be caused by a lack of dopamine, a neurotransmitter in the brain that is crucial for controlling body movement. Normally, MAO breaks down such neurotransmitters, but it can also help convert other substances into toxins that poison dopamine-producing brain cells.”

        All in the name of equality I suppose, it’s those damned unpatentable natural products again.

    • carol2000 says:

      That’s exactly how the vapers are. i drop in on e-cigs forums once in a while to point out that the anti-smokers can and will use the same frauds they use against smokers to falsely blame e-cigs for diseases that are really caused by infection. As long as their primary recruits are from the ranks of smokers, the same socioeconomic disadvantages are readily exploitable. A few actually seem to get that the studies are rigged, though, but not most.

  3. Government Prepares Internet Speech Crackdown Following Paris Attacks

    Western governments to coordinate attack on free speech

  4. Some French bloke says:

    Two quotes for those two smokers represented in your cartoon without a speech bubble:

    “This faux emoting for abstract values that have already been trampled and destroyed by our own states makes me sick as a pig after a truffle fest.”
    (‘Deludedmonkey’, commenting on an Independent article 4 days ago.)

    “I don’t have a smoking problem ‘Cept when I can’t get a smoke.” (adapted from a Tom Waits song, who mentioned drinking instead.)

  5. al Jazeera’s enuf to make you puke with all their all the French people love each other including our muslim family

  6. Smoking Lamp says:

    Liberty and tolerance would be nice. So would a balanced view of the effects of second hand smoke. It is virtually impossible to get a word in on the New Orleans sites these days. The Antismoker trolls are engaged in endless tit-for-tat personal attacks. The gist is all pro-choice posters are tobacco company shills, we are all on person (which is insane), and there is no data to support our case. They have given up any reasonable discussion or tolerance for comments. It is frustrating since that kind of groupthink and bullying is what enables Fascism to rise. With the broad number of comprehensive indoor/outdoor bans on the table globally I would welcome a victory somewhere soon. Is there any light at the end of this?

    • Barry Homan says:

      Any light at the end? My view goes like this: things will change, but nobody can really predict what the changes will be like. Prohibition in America was fought against, in similar ways like we fight: small voices that get smothered left and right, but they never, ever get completely eliminated. Prohibition was structured to eliminate drinking, but did it succeed in getting rid of drinkers?

      The same principle is at work here in the present: they want to get rid of smoking, but how are they going to get rid of smokers?

      We wait it out. We do what we can. We raise hell about it, we fight where we can, with what we got. What will be the final outcome? What will the new generations eventually bring?

      I feel time is on our side. Look what happened to McCarthy, Carrie Nation, et al.

      • Rose says:

        I quite agree, I am quite prepared to wait it out.
        From what I can see, Prohibition, the sparkly new idea at the time with no foreseeable downsides to it’s enthusiasts, fell apart in criminality, public contempt for the law and a pile of unintended human casualties.

      • If I remember right between 1919 and 1922 drinking rates went down,mostly because you just couldn’t get it anywhere. In those 3 years the blackmarkets got established and drinkin rates shot back up and to even newer highs.

        Women and the womens suffrage movement was lost,the gals went flapping ,smoking and drinking with there new found freedom. Being told what you couldn’t do meant as much to young people back then as it does today………..Don’t tell me I cant or I will.

        Myself I might try vaping if it would defeat the ban,but it doesn’t and it puts no money in the governemnts revenue pocket like tobacco does and has for the entire life of America.

        Ecig companies they don’t want the smoking bans repealed they want smokers to switch to their product only. Problem is nobody wants the ecigs around not government because theirs no taxes in it,not pharma cause it destroys on their NRT sales, Big Tobacco is buying them up everywhere anymore.

        The only place Ive seen a large scale use of ecigs was at universities. A FAD item to say the least. Its the new kool look! But like the hula hoop it will see its day come and go too.

        I even offered up new Ideas on selling cigs for alternative uses to an ecig manager to get the FDA and others off their asses,but nope their only angle for a sales pitch is harm reduction tool…………..that’s it.

        A company shouldn’t toss all their eggs in one single hope,they should find new uses for the product to expand its scope. They don want to and that’s why they will ultimately fail. They have no vision for when the bans are finally repealed and we know they will be its just a matter of time now.

      • garyk30 says:

        “Look what happened to McCarthy, Carrie Nation, et al.”

        Carrie was crazy; but, McCarthy was right.
        There were, and perhaps still are, a great number of Communists in the US govt and in Hollywood.

      • Some other Tom says:

        Yep, I rather agree it will be sort of sloppy and unknown when it ends — where, how or which straw breaks the back of the camel. That’s actually sort of become a pastime of mine, speculating about when the pendulum swings back, and how far…

        When it does all come crumbling down, it will be fantastic, I am certain…

        In the meantime, I am waiting it out, fighting in ways that are natural to me, even if it is merely quiet subversion, one on one conversations with people who smoke, too, telling them what I’ve learned, what they should be aware of about the forces that conspire against them… Many are clueless and think smoking is something they ‘need to give up’ even though they don’t want to. They’ve just been programmed to think they should.

  7. Rose says:

    Frank, I would add just one word to the speech bubble, “I wonder if we’ll ever get liberty and tolerance again.”

    Deliberately turning ordinary decent people into social outcasts using “social denormalisation” strategies is a very recent phenomenon.

    • margo says:

      Is it really a very recent phenomenon, or just a new way of doing an old thing? What about all those old women who knew about plants and herbs who were ostracised for being ‘witches’? (Just a thought!)
      I too am waiting it out, knowing that the one thing we can know is that everything changes all of the time. This will change.

      • Rose says:

        Margo, social engineering as a career is new.
        Witch hunts of all types are the old way, and I don’t think anyone has ever hunted people of all classes, creeds and races across the globe simultaneously before.

  8. Steven says:

    To those who maybe having a dig at Harley.remember the saying,divided we fall together we stand.we are all after the same outcome.amend this despicable smoking ban.

    • Amend never TOTAL REPEAL……………

      • Steven says:

        Harley I do mean amend.if we are ever going to win this argument we must have a little bit of respect for non smokers who are offended by the smell.remember I am on your side,but we have to show a little bit of humility and co passion.that’s what makes us better than the anti smoking zealots.

        • beobrigitte says:

          Actually, I do know non-smokers who don’t give a **** about the anti-smokers’ babble but who nevertheless do not like the smell of tobacco smoke.
          Tolerance is the way to go. It is possible to separate the non-smoking area from the smoking area in a pub; the Austrians put the (slightly lower air pressure) smoking areas in shopping malls deeper inside the place; you open the door, air is drawn INTO the smoking areas. I stood next to one of these doors contemplating to stop the shopping and go back to my hotel as I could not find the promised smoking cafe…

          Things work both ways! And, yes, for a laugh bet (who will run for fresh air first?) I made a non-smoker who hates the smell of tobacco smoke sit through an evening with me and and ashtray in return of me sitting in the kitchen having to smell a leg of lamb roasting in the oven.
          I lost the bet, I ran out after 2 hours and paid up.

  9. carol2000 says:

    My first thought was, why couldn’t somebody have done that to the bastards at Mad magazine? They used to have some anti-smoker crap every single issue.

    • beobrigitte says:

      Oh…. I used to love this mag in the early 70s. I still have most copies I bought then. (in German)
      No anti-smoking crap then, just fun. Things did change….

      • carol2000 says:

        Maybe they didn’t have the anti-smoking crap in the German version. I know they had it regularly way back in the 1960s. I’m sure they had it in the 1970s, too, but by then, I wouldn’t bother reading it.

  10. magnetic01 says:

    Re: vapers. In the NOLA situation, there’s a vaper group stating that, yep, smoking bans are good. But we’re not smokers and we don’t produce smoke. So don’t include our e-cigs in this otherwise reasonable ordinance. Thanks for nothing :)

    Musicians, some bar owners and several health officials decried the damage of second-hand smoke to bar and music venue customers and employees alike. Other bar owners, patrons, restaurant industry reps and casino operators warned of the damage the city’s economy — and therefore, its tax base — would face should any ban come to pass. And proposal had the trappings of government over-reach, they said.
    Another contingent lobbied for a third way: some reprieve in the proposed law for those former tobacco smokers who had switched to electronic cigarettes or nicotine vaporizers. The proposal would outlaw these devices as well as smoking marijuana in most public places.


    • That was Jred and her crew from Clash…………..

      • If theyd drop the BS about well we aint smokers either and figure out its all of us in the same damn boat itd be different. That was the issue we had with the ecig fuckers to start with,,,,,,,,, Many last year said well we are all in the same boat so lets work together. That lasted for the last 10 months and then bam they go right back to kissing nannys ass with their same old shit harm reduction hoping and begging they get a pass and get to be Nazis to vaping in public while condemning the tobacco smoker………..If they ever got the pass and the Nazis allowed them to be considered the same as a NRT drug you can sure bet theyd be nailing us smokers to the proverbial cross and doing junk ass studies right along with the Nazis and likely even paying for the same

  11. Column: Anti-smoking zealots make my Irish boil

    Duff Hale Guest Columnist

    Nothing gets my “Irish” up any more or any faster than those people who feel compelled to impose their beliefs, mores, or values on others, especially under the color of law.

    About four months ago the anti-smoking fanatics on the Waxahachie City Council passed a no smoking ban on most businesses, in public buildings, city-owned facilities, nursing homes, within 25 feet of most public gathering areas, places of employment including break rooms and elevators. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of. As city officials they are within their rights to ban smoking in public buildings but not businesses.

    Golly, smokers are the only class of people it’s all right to discriminate against now. Why should a gaggle of busybodies on the city council tell a business owner what they can and cannot do in their establishments? Any of them ever hear of an ex post facto law?

    For crying out loud, if you don’t like the smell of cigarette smoke go somewhere else. It’s still a free (sorta) country unless clowns like these keep getting their way then our civil liberties are shot to hell.

    Take Midlothian for example. One restaurant, Dee Tees, allows customers to smoke. Several of us ate breakfast there for a while then decided the smell of smoke was too much and changed to a different restaurant. That’s the way it’s supposed to work. Vote with your feet and your wallet.

    Caroline made her restaurant non-smoking because she felt the smoking was interfering with her business. She owned the place and made a business decision without the benefit of a know-it-all city council and its ridiculous ordinances, thank you very much. Again, that’s the way it’s supposed to work in a free country.

    Now, Cancun’s restaurant had a separate room closed off from the other customers where those who wanted to could smoke. You only caught a brief whiff of smoke if you were sitting right by the door when the waitress went in or out. Not annoying or overpowering at all. But now they can’t allow their customers to smoke, period, and that’s a shame a business cannot dictate its own policies for its customers thanks to know-it-alls like the Waxahachie City Council.

    City council members certainly have a right to denounce smoking as bad for one’s health if that’s what they believe, but to push that belief on others by making rules is another matter altogether. We all have freedom of speech and expression but we do not have freedom to force our beliefs on others. Unless, of course, you are a member of the Waxahachie City Council.

    There’s an old saying about your rights stopping at my nose. The First Amendment does not convey a right to yell “FIRE!” in a crowded auditorium since that would be potentially harmful to others. So rights do have limits.

    I feel strongly people should be free to exercise their personal preferences without interference from government regardless of how well intentioned. Hence, no one should be able to force me to smoke or not smoke. That’s my decision and no one else’s.

    I’m a non-smoker and haven’t smoked in over 35 years. But I should be able to do so if I’m so inclined and be able to do it in a business that is willing to allow it if that’s what they want.

    Here is the question: Why can’t people just keep their noses out of other’s business? Why do some feel obligated to interfere in the lives of others? Is it some overblown sense of moral righteousness and superiority that they believe gives them the right to order others around?

    To the Waxahachie City Council I say, “Bad on you for your obnoxious interference with the lives of business owners and citizens alike.” You should keep your opinions to yourself rather than making them the law and meddling with the rights of others.

    Duff Hall is a resident of Midlothian and a contributor to the Daily Light and Midlothian Mirror.

  12. Heres are great 1st amendment rights being violated

    Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune
    4 hours ago

    Please be aware that spam is against our Community Rules here on NOLA.com. Participating in spamming our comment threads (including posting the same messages over and over) will lead to comment deletions and/or account suspensions.

    Please also be aware that using multiple accounts in one discussion is against the rules. From the rules:

    •Do not use multiple account nicknames in one discussion. Do not answer your own posts using another nickname.

    If anyone has questions about this policy, please contact me directly and I’ll be happy to assist you – vmiles@nola.com

    Community Rules – http://www.nola.com/forums/index.ssf?rules.html

    2atpontchrtrnralph adamoLikeReply


    4 hours ago

    @Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

    Just curious . . . almost 300 posts have been deleted now – most opposing the ban. Are you saying that those comments were all spam or multiple account posts?


    Almost everything we had up destroying their precious anti-smoking BS has been taken down and on purpose by the paper. Even admitting it.

  13. Heres are great 1st amendment rights being violated

    Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune
    4 hours ago

    Please be aware that spam is against our Community Rules here on NOLA.com. Participating in spamming our comment threads (including posting the same messages over and over) will lead to comment deletions and/or account suspensions.

    Please also be aware that using multiple accounts in one discussion is against the rules. From the rules:

    •Do not use multiple account nicknames in one discussion. Do not answer your own posts using another nickname.

    If anyone has questions about this policy, please contact me directly and I’ll be happy to assist you

    Community Rules – http://www.nola.com/forums/index.ssf?rules.html

    2atpontchrtrnralph adamoLikeReply


    4 hours ago

    @Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

    Just curious . . . almost 300 posts have been deleted now – most opposing the ban. Are you saying that those comments were all spam or multiple account posts?


    Almost everything we had up destroying their precious anti-smoking BS has been taken down and on purpose by the paper. Even admitting it.

    • beobrigitte says:

      Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune 3 hours ago

      @SayWhat @Valeya Miles, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune Sadly, yes. Those comments originated from a single source.

      How so? 300 comments from one single source?

      Lively debate is welcomed here, so it’s hard for us to see that amount of comments wiped. But it does a disservice to our Community to have one entity attempt to control the conversation by skirting the rules.

      Does this mean tobacco control advocates are being deleted, too?

      • Im running down the comments right now, But with NOLA you can be signed in and you can see your posts on your screen,but nobody else can. So I see some of my posts still up and some missing so I cant verify until someone else can verify my posts are still up jack listerio.

    • carol2000 says:

      And all this happened because harley insisted on being an asshole. That gave them their pretext to punish everybody. So don’t tell me to stand together with him, Frank.

  14. Tony says:

    I presume ‘Je suis Charlie’ is an echo of ‘I am Spartacus’. But in the UK at least, Charlie Hebdo would not have been allowed to exist. What’s more, the UK MSM have not re-published any of the cartoons, probably through (understandable) fear. Anyone saying ‘I am Spartacus’ put themselves in line of torture and execution in Roman times.
    So it seems to me that the UK establishment and MSM are really saying ‘I am not Spartacus’ or ‘Je ne suis pas Charlie’.

  15. BrianB says:

    Je suis Harleyrider

  16. carol2000 says:

    Do you mind if I hotlink to your picture and put it on my front page? I looked up wordpress.com’s policy, and it said bandwidth is not limited. I’ll include a link to your blog.

  17. Pingback: Illustration | Frank Davis

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