It All Mounts Up

A couple of people have offered to help out financially in the last few weeks. Mac the Knife, who’s one of my longest standing readers, and who’s none too well, is one of them. So I’ve been vaguely thinking about adding a Tip Jar to the blog, to drop a few pennies in if they’ve got no other way of helping. I’ve got lots of time, but not lots of money.

I was thinking today that my principal expenses in doing the International Social Impact Survey are going to be beer and tobacco and petrol. My modus operandi will be one of sitting in a pub with a beer and a cigarette and a packet of salted peanuts, maybe wearing blue jeans and white shirt, and then ambling over to anyone that I see smoking, to ask them if they’d like to do the survey. And doing things this way, day after day, it all slowly mounts up.

And some of them I’ll certainly get chatting to. In fact, I’ve got chatting to most of the people I’ve surveyed so far. And if I got chatting to them for long enough, I might even end up buying them a beer. And, after a long day in the pub, I might end up buying myself steak and chips somewhere, all washed down with a half bottle of Rioja. It all mounts up.

But those are the foreseeables. What about the unforeseeables? Once you get talking to people, anything can happen. And these are going to be people of all ages, and from all walks of life. It’s one reason why I’ve been a bit nervous about it. Last time I was interviewing people, one guy told me he was an ‘expert’. Maybe I’ll find myself talking to writers and politicians and doctors? Could be anyone. Anyone at all. Things could get real wild…

F’rinstance, s’pose I amble over to some girl sitting at a table on her own in the corner of the pub garden, and ask her if she’d like to complete the survey I’m doing, and she says “Sure,” and as I sit with my beer watching her tick the boxes, I suddenly realise that she’s Lana Del Rey, smoking one of her Pall Mall Blues.

Well, it could happen!

And obviously I’d have to buy her a drink, wouldn’t I? And I’d say that I was a big fan of hers, and she’d say yeah but have you bought my new album yet? And I’d say well no, not yet, but I was fixing to buy it maybe next week. And she pulls a CD out of her battered snakeskin handbag, and hands me one (just like Jred did a year or so back). So I coughs up £10. And that’s another expense. It all mounts up, see.

And then I sez what brings you to this sleepy little village in Gloucestershire young lady. I thought you spent your time in LA and NYC and London and Glasgow. And she sez she is actually driving from London to Glasgow via the scenic route through Gloucestershire, and stopped off here coz her vintage 1960 Fun Fun Fun Ford Thunderbird has developed a loud knocking sound in its engine or something, and she’s trying to get her manager on her mobile, but can’t get a signal. And she’s s’posed to be doing a gig in Carlisle tonite.

And then we chat some more about this and that, and then she looks at me pleadingly and sez, “Oh Frank what am I going to do? I’m stuck in the middle of nowhere, and my car’s broken and my phone dont work!” And being a gent I sez, no worries young lady, we’ll get you to Carlisle.

So we finish our drinks, and we climbs into my car, and we head for Carlisle tres vite. And that’s more gas and more expense. It all mounts up.

And then, when we’re just outside Wigan, Lana sez omygod, Frank, I left all my clothes in the T-bird, including my concert dress, the one with the sequins all over! What am I gonna wear, FFS?

So we cruise around Preston looking for concert dresses, and Lana finds one in a little corner shop, and it’s only £835. But of course we have to get her a handbag and a coupla pairs of high heel sneakers, and some lipsticks and a bottle of Chanel perfume, and some flowers for her hair. And coz she left her credit card in the T-bird, I picks up the tab. So now I’m about £1238.57 down. And it’s all mounting up very fast.

And Lana is asleep with her head on my shoulder when we finally roll into the main drag in Carlisle, about 10 minutes before the show’s due to start. And she sprints out of the car into the theatre, and I buys a ticket at the desk. It all mounts up.

And then Lana knocks em dead with a great storming show, even if the dress is maybe one size too big. And she dedicates her last number, Blue Jeans, saying this is for Frank.

And after the show Lana invites me backstage, and I gets to meet lots of sleb rockers like Sting and Bee and Slash and Burn, with Lana saying this is my new boyfriend Frank. And I gets talking to the Stone Roses about stone roses, whatever the hell they are.

And then halfway through all this I heads outside for a quick smoke, maybe accompanied by Sheryl Crowe. But then, when I try to get back in, this bouncer on the door sez not you buddy. You dont belong here. Youse far too old. And I sez for cryin out loud I’s Lana’s boyfriend! And he just laffs and sez And I’m Father Christmas.

And when everyone’s gone, and the theatre’s been locked up for the night, I walk back to my car, and climbs in, and drives all the way to wherever I came from. And just outside Dewsbury I buy myself a cheese sandwich and a coffee in an empty transport cafe, and stand outside in the dark and the rain. Which is another expense. It all mounts up.

Poignant, eh? I never get the girl.

And sure, I agree, it’s pretty improbable that you could find a sequinned concert dress in Preston.

Well, I mean, what if that happened, eh? And these are just the sort of eventualities that have to be factored in. Planned for. Thought through carefully. You have to be prepared for things like this. It would help to have a tip jar with a few quid in it to cover eventualities like this, don’t you think?

It would be a Tip Jar for beer and cigarettes and steak and gas and wild women. It wouldn’t be for a respectable Noble Cause or anything stupid like that.

And, like I say, it all mounts up.

About Frank Davis

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73 Responses to It All Mounts Up

  1. Makes sense to me!

    :>
    Michael

  2. magnetic01 says:

    O/T – I couldn’t contribute anything on sequined dresses :)

    These are a few comments (possibly on another blog) from about a year ago. It pertains to an article by [UK] TC fanatics – including Gilmore. In the article it is argued that, concerning anti-tobacco, contemporary TC should not be compared with the Nazi regime because current anti-tobacco measures are far more organized, widespread, and draconian than occurred in the Nazi regime. How’s that for an “argument”.

    “In conclusion, the widespread use of Nazi imagery by pro-smoking groups to attack those seeking to limit the harm caused by tobacco is a distortion of history that cannot be justified.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2441844/?tool=pmcentrez

    It is a very curious and poorly researched article. The information on Nazi anti-tobacco came in the mid-1990s, long after many, many groups, including governments, had committed themselves to a “smokefree” world. Having been “caught out”, the article seems to be a feeble attempt to distance current TC from any Nazi association. And it attempts to do so by claiming that Nazi anti-tobacco was piecemeal, nothing like the organized tyranny of contemporary TC: It is argued that contemporary TC should not be associated with the dark Nazi reign because contemporary TC is more organized and has instituted more widespread, draconian smoking bans! Yep, that’s what they’re saying.

    Firstly, eugenics ideology, which Nazism was committed to, is antismoking. The Nazis would have been well aware of the antismoking in early-1900s USA. Straight-out bans on sale/use didn’t work well. The last American state to repeal its antismoking ordinance was Kansas in 1927, just a few years before the Nazis came to power. There were antismoking ordinances established in parts of Nazi Germany and within parts of the military. I think Hitler had far more sweeping antismoking aspirations in mind after the war. It has to be remembered that, although antismoking is a point of eugenics ideology, there were other far more pressing “priorities” for the Nazis – world war and genocide. Also, the Nazis had a little over a decade in power with other serious distractions. Contemporary TC has had more than three decades of unquestioned, highly-funded, prioritized influence. It has been allowed to flourish (government-supported) with essentially no distractions.

    The article entirely lacks any reference to eugenics which is the connecting thread to the antismoking crusades of the last century (America and Germany). As such, it fails (as a point of self-survival) to recognize that contemporary antismoking is also eugenics-driven. It does not ask the question as to why there was influential antismoking in Germany at all. Antismoking was not globally popular. Why did it suddenly pop up in Nazi Germany? As importantly, why did antismoking gain legislative approval for a time in early-1900s USA? The answer is the same – eugenics.

    The eugenics mentality is a shallow one. This is what makes it very dangerous. The article in question acknowledges that Nazism was generally a dark framework. But it is quick to point out that this should not be confused with contemporary TC which is “benevolent”, only “seeking to limit the harm caused by tobacco”. (Of course they are going to say this; the alternative is to acknowledge that they have already fully committed themselves to a twisted eugenics pathway) Typical of superficiality, it fails to recognize that this is a eugenics ideal that not necessarily everyone wants to sign-up to, let alone have foisted upon them. Being morally relativist, eugenics can approve of all sorts of questionable means (e.g., denormalization, stigmatization, propaganda, fear and hate-mongering) to achieve its questionable goal(s). It therefore cannot or will not recognize the very considerable damage that it produces psychologically, socially, morally, economically, politically, and even physically. Turning one-time relatively-free societies upside-down to statism/fascism run by a eugenics elite is not justified whatsoever to accomplish the eugenics ideal of antismoking. This is all circular, self-promoting, dangerous Trash®.

    The mistake that has been made is to associate antismoking to the general idea of fascism. Rather, the connection is to eugenics, an ideology which happens to be fascist/dictatorial. It is therefore more prudent to associate contemporary TC to eugenics rather than Nazism specifically. The connection to Nazism can then be made because of the underlying eugenics. But the TCers are right in a most perverse way. Concerning antismoking, the Nazis were “powder puffs” next to contemporary TC. This is hardly an endearing point although TCers believe it is because their cause is, apparently (self-defined), only “benevolent and noble”.

    [Note, too, that, although there were very few sterilizations being conducted by this time, sterilization ordinances in many American states were only repealed as late as the 1970s. As the “breeding” aspect was being let go – at least temporarily, the emphasis shifted heavily to particularly antismoking (the behavioral/environmental aspect of eugenics): A situation of the eugenics mentality declaring that if we can’t get away with this (breeding manipulation, physical sterilization), then we’re going to try to get away with this (antismoking, social sterilization)]

  3. reinholdfrombavaria says:

    :-D I dye with laffin! :-D

  4. magnetic01 says:

    2
    The current crop of eugenics fanatics have been caught out – badly. Many groups and governments had fully committed themselves to the smokefree “utopia” long before the Nazi or eugenics connection became apparent. With this new information the fanatics had two options. Firstly, they could recognize that they had gone down an already trodden, twisted path and curtail their commitment to a deranged agenda. Or, secondly, they could rationalize their current insanity as being fundamentally different from the eugenics of earlier last century.

    Given that eugenics thinkers are typically superficial, they have opted for the latter. And, Proctor’s biased proffering is at least partly an attempt to contain the fallout. Proctor does not make the critical connection between Nazi and earlier American eugenics because he underplays eugenics as a philosophical framework that demands certain stances.

    The facts are that the current antismoking crusade (and anti-alcohol, prescribed diet, and physical exercise) has been pushed by the standard eugenics personnel – physicians, biologists, zoologists, pharmacologists, statisticians, behaviorists – using the same long-discredited view of smoking (i.e., nicotine addiction). Although religions or “temperance groups” have been manipulated into the derangement since, these were not involved in the beginnings of the current crusade. The current crusade has been produced by physicalism. Healthism is physicalism; it is the behavioral dimension of eugenics; it is applied biology at the behavioral level. Further, there is the same preferred method of achieving social goals – propaganda and denormalization. There is now a very large, global, entrenched Public Health bureaucracy peddling the “medical model” through constant terrorizing of the public. In addition to ideological investment, there are also industrial interests involved such as the pharmaceutical cartel. This partnering of ideology and economic interests – an “industrial socialism” – is highly dangerous.

    The current fanatics cannot disengage from their derangement. So they attempt to distance themselves from their twisted predecessors in a variety of ways. They contort history. They contort the scientific method. They contort philosophical frameworks. They contort ideo-politics. All this contortion allows them to claim – “We’re not like those [evil] people [eugenicists]. We’re only trying to reduce the harm done by tobacco”. In addition to all their other common contortions, the current fanatics don’t comprehend that this sort of claim, too, is a give away. Their predecessors made the same sort of claims, e.g., “for a healthier society”, “race betterment”, “fitter families”, while perpetrating an insanity on a grand scale.

  5. magnetic01 says:

    Frank, my apologies for my regular, long posts. You’ve been very good about it. But it highlights a critical point.

    Fanaticsm/zealotry will resort to a plethora of inflammatory claims, slogans, and sound bites to push its ideological agenda. Just a few one-line slogans could violate multiple principles of what is already known. These baseless slogans are very easy to make. Untangling the mess is hard work. Many of the baseless claims made about tobacco (and alcohol) early last century were eventually discredited/discounted, usually by other doctors – the disentangling of fact from fiction. But it took 10, 20, 30 years. In the short-term interim, before the untangling, the inflammatory claims produced a frenzy, a craze, a bandwagon, particularly when the claims are coming from medically-oriented personnel. Earlier last century, the US legislature was reasonably vigilant with the religious fanatics, but it was completely prone to medical (eugenics) zealotry. The eugenicists were viewed as scientific and scholarly. They were supported/funded by the mega-wealthy. They promised that if they controlled society along certain dimensions, they would eradicate crime, poverty, and disease with the idea of “prevention” as their catch-cry. So, many legislators were of the opinion that these claims are coming from medicos; they must know what they’re talking about. Big mistake!

    Unfortunately, we’ve gone down this contorted “medical” track again, which has produced a mess of contorted beliefs to promote “the agenda”. And it’s going to take some doing to untangle it.

  6. smokervoter says:

    Oh my God Frank I’m seriously laughing my ass of. No actually I think I’m laughing out loud. In my humble opinion this is one of the funniest things you’ve ever written.

    Seriously now. You know the Find and Replace function included with any and all word processors? It affords a writer the option of acronym-izing the rough draft and then going back through once and Finding and Replacing all of those initialisms so as to make a treatise eminently more comprehensible to the masses.

    TBS (That Being Said – apparently my very own spanking new abbreviation) this post absolutely cracked me up. ACMU! add that one in, too.

    And Lana had better not get caught ‘cruisin’ through the hamburger stand now’ or she’ll put on some weight and she’ll have to pay the freight.

    Sheryl Crow, now who was that cancer survivor she fell in and out of love with? The names right on the tip of my tongue.

    Great stuff. I’d give my left testicle to right half this well.

    • smokervoter says:

      Oh, if I only took my own advice and Found and Replaced a.) laughing my ass off and b.) to write half this well.

      Geez Louise, how embarrassing. No more half-nutted attempts at comedy for this guy today.

  7. junican says:

    I detect an underlying seriousness to Frank’s post.
    It is very important to understand that we cannot compete AT ALL with the financial resources of Tobacco Control. It follows therefore that we must not even contemplate trying to outdo them in the publicity department. What we can do iswhittlee away at their fraudulent claims.

    The fraudulent claims started with Doll and Hill in the Hospital Study. The fraud was that they equated ‘relative risk’ with ‘absolute risk’. That means that they said that smokers are ten times more likely to get lung cancer, without stating that almost nobody gets lung cancer. Ten times zero is zero.exaggerateerate, of course – but not by much. We have seen this debate before. To simplify the idea, let me put it this way:
    If 1 person, in a group of 1 000 000, suffered some sort of infection, then 999 999 people did not suffer that infection. If it is claimed that some activity (like smoking) caused that 1 person’s infection, then that would be a possibility. However, if the other 999 999 persons also engaged in that activity (like smoking), then, if they all smoked, ALL of them should have suffered the same fate – unless some other ‘force’ intervened.

    Messy? Yes. But messiness is normal. And the the ’cause’, ‘effect’, ‘other force’ is true. If A causes B, then A must always cause B, unless C intervenes and stops the process.

    If smoking causes lung cancer, then all smokers must get lung cancer, UNLESS something else stops that happening. It is reasonable to ask what it is that stops the vast majority of smokers from getting lung cancer.

    • harleyrider1978 says:

      Cousin we dont have to compete on a financial scale with TC allwe have to do is wait em out!

      There money cant last forever………Just for instance,if you were the government and you knew financial collapse was imminent whats the most worthless dept and programs that should be abolished. What would bring in Revenue to the bankrupt government.

      Im not bringing up anything new,its the real reasons why alcohol prohibition failed and was repealed! It cost the government money when it was broke! Alcohol and tobacco are big revenue for governments everywhere and the sales tax for the local economies…….

      Governments know its all BULLSHIT anyway………..All we have to do is help it along the way. Thats why I keep saying the end of the EU is the first step in ending the bans the fastest way.

      The states have already cut funding and tossed it into the general funds just to pay the bills,it shant be long til the federal govmnt in america will have to do the same as well as other countries. Spain just last week was threatening to tinker with the ban,then yesterday we hear spain is getting 125 billion in bailouts from the EU now. Its a band aid on an economic domino collapse……But a few threats of destroying the EU mandates seems to have worked for reverse blackmale on the EU by the spanish government.

      Like I say,lets keep doing what we are doing as its working, why because the nazis came after us last week!!!!!

    • Frank Davis says:

      I detect an underlying seriousness to Frank’s post.

      Who? Me?

  8. harleyrider1978 says:

    Alright Frank,we have to find out if this Lana Delary is suitable material to be your mistress.

    I think we need a Chaperone for your first date.

    I think of Carrie Nation or Debra Arnot maybe as suitable as they will surely be beaten up by the both of you and create a mutual bond in basic survival tactics.

    After the beating takes place,be sure as a gentleman to let Lana have the first hit………ladies first and all.

    Let that moment your eyes meet with satisfaction as you watch the blood fly from your chaperones mouth,it is a special moment one of conectivity for both of you.

    Now that physical contact has been made at the expense of your belated chaperone you can take a refreshing walk down by the Thames………Remember that after beating shared moment is one of self-satisfaction for you both…..never let it go to waste!

  9. harleyrider1978 says:

    Frank ya gotta have some violence,romance and moonlite to get the girl!

  10. harleyrider1978 says:

    The 27,000 charities that survive on taxpayers cash and lobby for the pet causes of politicians
    Llooks like Chris Snowden hit another homer!

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157373/The-27-000-charities-survive-taxpayers-cash-lobby-pet-causes-politicians.html#ixzz1xS2s0ZLY

  11. harleyrider1978 says:

    Cessation hotlines caused the obesity epidemic! Start smoking and Fight obesity!

    • Begging bowl says:

      You won’t be the only blogger with a begging bowl attached to their blogs, i think it’s the wake up call you need frank!, counting blog stats is one thing but hard earned money being exchanged is another thing completely.

      The only other wake up call or reality checks that could be implimented are a real world meet up protest or demonstration mularky where all the ” sorry,i would love to come but…” messaged get posted on the blog before the big day.

      Another reality check would be frank if you took the survey to a pub where nobody knows you, go and find the smoke hut and watch the reaction of smokers who look at you as if you are a simpleton, a few sympathetic reactions from folk who know your face in the local is one thing but being a smoke hut botherer amongst strangers isn’t going to be pleasant experience.

      Keyboard dreaming with the regular denial oddballs aint real, begging bowls and real world surveys are excellent reality checks.

      go for it frank.

      • nisakiman says:

        And your point is?

      • orion158 says:

        What would Tobacco Control parasites know about hard-earned money?

        • Frank Davis says:

          Another reality check would be frank if you took the survey to a pub where nobody knows you, go and find the smoke hut and watch the reaction of smokers who look at you as if you are a simpleton,

          I’ve done it already. I get good positive reactions. The reality round here is that nobody minds smokers, and never has done.

          And in fact the only places I’ve tried out the questionnaire is in pubs where nobody knows me.

  12. magnetic01 says:

    What all sides can agree on, including the antismokers (see link above), is that, as far as antismoking goes, contemporary antismoking is way nastier and far more draconian than the Nazi attempt.

    • Rose says:

      I just can not understand why they did that study in the first place, surely it would have been better to keep quiet.

  13. Begging bowl says:

    @magnetico, it is this blog that wants to build an army with uniforms that suggests violence is coming in the future , and you suggest health workers are Nazis!!, its the real life nasty bullying and harassment seen against health workers recently that seems very Nazi like to me.

    @nisakiman, my point is that some connection to the real world is much needed by frank,

    @orion158 , it is bloggers without jobs who put the begging bowl out,

    • magnetic01 says:

      @BeggingBowl
      1 Get your facts straight, particularly historical facts; you’re proffering sub-amateurish and asinine comments.

      2 “you suggest health workers are Nazis”

      No, that’s not what I suggest at all. Now pay attention. Are you ready? Concerning antismoking and according to current antismokers themselves, contemporary antismoking is far worse – far more draconian and widespread – than Nazi antismoking was. The Nazi “purists” would be envious of the current mess. You call them “health workers”? These so-called Tobacco Control “health workers” are routinely assaulting the public health with their inflammatory propaganda, which they call “benevolent” and which has produced a violence of law against smokers.

      3 “it is bloggers without jobs who put the begging bowl out,”

      The TC fraudsters have ill-gotten, mostly tax-payer/smoker-funded jobs!

    • Frank Davis says:

      I’m self-employed. It’s just that nobody’s hiring me right now. It’s what comes with the terrain.

  14. Begging bowl says:

    Nazis were decades ahead of their time on the subject of smoking and health, what they belived to be the truth is now recognised as the factual truth.They indeed would be envious that world opinion is now united when once they were alone with their views.

    The simpleton naive connection of nazis with all the negative stuff associated with them and modern day health campaigns is actually welcomed by me because its only when that sort of stuff gets aired to the general public pro smoking trolls gets seen as the nutters they are and will no doubt get airtime to make fools of themselves for all to see

    A violence of law,assaulting the public health with their inflammatory propaganda is an epic fail – Twisting and inventing new slogans in no way covers up those headlines of real life threats of violence from pro smoking trolls.

    Frank has let the side down for smokers rights, the army nonsense makes it worse and then in a desperate attempt to dig himself out of the hole Nazis keep getting a mention.

    You haven’t got a clue how bad this shite appears, not a clue.

    • magnetic01 says:

      “Nazis were decades ahead of their time on the subject of smoking and health, what they belived to be the truth is now recognised as the factual truth.They indeed would be envious that world opinion is now united when once they were alone with their views.”

      You’re the one speaking highly of the Nazis. Do you even know what you’re saying? Do you have an editor in your mind that checks thoughts before they are released into the world? You’re one of those that actually believe, like those in TC, that the anti-tobacco part can be separated from the general Nazi statist, eugenics, social-engineering mentality. You’re the simpleton, the ignorant fool.

      Frank has let the side down for smokers rights, the army nonsense makes it worse and then in a desperate attempt to dig himself out of the hole Nazis keep getting a mention.

      Well, if you’re so proud of Nazi anti-tobacco – way ahead of its time – then why would you be offended by the Nazi reference? You also seem to believe in “smokers’ rights” (that “Frank has let down”). And what might these “rights’ be? Do smokers have the right not to be bulldozed out of normal society and on the basis of inflammatory propaganda?

      You keep making those drivel-loaded comments. There’ll come a time, hopefully very soon, when the shite you’re spouting is seen for what it is.

    • beobrigitte says:

      Nazis were decades ahead of their time on the subject of smoking and health, what they belived to be the truth is now recognised as the factual truth.They indeed would be envious that world opinion is now united when once they were alone with their views.

      The simpleton naive connection of nazis with all the negative stuff associated with them and modern day health campaigns is actually welcomed by me because its only when that sort of stuff gets aired to the general public pro smoking trolls gets seen as the nutters they are and will no doubt get airtime to make fools of themselves for all to see ..

      BB should be congratulated to this contribution, although his/her attempt in “humour” (?) has not been very successful I hasten to add.

      …They [Nazis] indeed would be envious that world opinion is now united when once they were alone with their views.

      BB, would this be of use to you?

      pro smoking trolls gets seen as the nutters they are and will no doubt get airtime to make fools of themselves for all to see ..

      Put this to the test, please.

      ————————————————————————————————————
      @Frank: I hold you personally responsible for the addition of the today acquired laughter lines, Thank you for It All Mounts Up

      • nisakimann says:

        “BB should be congratulated to this contribution, although his/her attempt in “humour” (?) has not been very successful I hasten to add.”

        beobrigitte, it is a precondition of joining the ranks of the anti-smoking fanatics that you must first have a quadruple humour bypass.

        • beobrigitte says:

          it is a precondition of joining the ranks of the anti-smoking fanatics that you must first have a quadruple humour bypass.

          The bypass op can be described as having been successful.

  15. Rose says:

    Oh bother, having driven us out of the pubs, they are now invading our comfortable on-line Tap room. No more flippant remarks Frank, they don’t understand them.

    • harleyrider1978 says:

      Rose when TC reaches the childish low of having to attack lil ol us and Frank!
      Its easy to see they are scared…………Something must be up as there Propaganda machine gets exposed for every claim they make by online Bloggers and then its spread worldwide by everyone. The more they come forth,the better I feel their end is comming!

      • Rose says:

        I wouldn’t mind Harley, but he/she had to wade through all of Frank’s wild and far-fetched fantasies about Lana Del Rey in order to find the comment box to insult him.

    • magnetic01 says:

      On the contrary, Rose. I think it’s a refreshing change to have such an eloquent [tee hee], well informed [giggle] supremacist such as “Begging Bowl” grace this blog. BB can enlighten us on how the Nazis would be proud of contemporary Tobacco Control, how TC is carrying on the Nazi anti-tobacco baton, how TC has brought “revolutionary” Nazi anti-tobacco to the world whilst adding many degrees of persecution and oppression.

      • Rose says:

        I take your point Mag, Nazi science, if not it’s methods, were greatly admired at the time, perhaps BB can tell us a little more.

        Operation Paperclip

        “Operation Paperclip was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program used to recruit the scientists of Nazi Germany for employment by the United States in the aftermath of World War II (1939–45). It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), and in the context of the burgeoning Soviet–American Cold War (1945–91); one purpose of Operation Paperclip was to deny German scientific knowledge and expertise to the USSR[1] and the UK[2] and to (divided) Germany itself.

        Although the JIOA’s recruitment of German scientists began after the European Allied victory (8 May 1945), US President Harry Truman did not formally order the execution of Operation Paperclip until August 1945. Truman’s order expressly excluded anyone found “to have been a member of the Nazi Party, and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism.” However, those restrictions would have rendered ineligible most of the leading scientists the JIOA had identified for recruitment, among them rocket scientists Wernher von Braun and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a “menace to the security of the Allied Forces”.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

        Our version was Operation Matchbox

        UK arranged transfer of Nazi scientists to Australia

        “Britain secretly organised the recruitment and transfer to Australia of scores of leading Nazi scientists and weapons specialists after the second world war, newly declassified Australian government papers disclosed yesterday.

        The German scientists sent to Australia under a top secret Anglo-American project codenamed Operation Matchbox included SS and Nazi party members. The leading Nazi-hunting watchdog, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem, yesterday demanded an investigation into the recruitments ordered by Britain and the US, and said Australia was a haven for “holocaust perpetrators and mass murderers”.

        According to documents obtained by the Sydney Morning Herald, the British government decided within four months of the end of the war to poach “a limited number of German scientists and technicians on defence research to develop military potential at Germany’s expense.”

        The Anglo-American moves, at the onset of the Cold War, were also sparked by fears that Stalin’s Soviet Union would kidnap the weapons specialists if they remained in Germany.”
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/aug/17/iantraynor

        • Rose says:

          Here’s a starter.

          Commentary: Schairer and Schöniger’s forgotten tobacco epidemiology and the Nazi quest for racial purity

          “It is important to see Schairer and Schöniger’s paper against a backdrop of the history of tobacco, the history of cancer, and the history of how a causal link between the two came to be recognized. Schairer and Schöniger’s paper also has to be seen, though, as a political document, a product of the Nazi ideological focus on tobacco as a corrupting force whose elimination would serve the cause of ‘racial hygiene’.

          Nazi Germany was governed by a health-conscious political elite bent on European conquest and genocidal extermination, and tobacco at this time was viewed as one among many ‘threats’ to the health of the chosen Volk.”

          “Gabriele Schulze and Käte Dischner in their jointly written Die Zigarettenraucherin (‘The Female Cigarette Smoker’, Jena, 1942), for example, interviewed 165 women as part of a study of the physical and psychological effects of nicotine withdrawal.

          Most of the women studied were incarcerated at prisons in Weimar, Gera or Kleinmuesdorf near Leipzig, where smoking was forbidden; the dissertation records the women’s cries for cigarettes, and attempts to classify female smokers by menstrual patterns, ‘constitutional type’ (asthenic, pyknic, leptosome, etc.), and criminal behaviour.

          The authors claimed that smoking made one vulnerable to tuberculosis and called for a total smoking ban for women, consistent with the Nazi slogan ‘Die deutsche Frau raucht nicht!’ (The German woman does not smoke!).

          “Schairer and Schöniger’s case-control epidemiological study was financed by Karl Astel’s Institute for Tobacco Hazards Research (or ‘Institute for the Struggle Against Tobacco Hazards’, as it was also known), established in 1941 at Jena University by a 100 000 Reichsmarks grant from Hitler’s Reich Chancellery.”

          “Astel was also a rabid anti-tobacco activist, who quickly made a name for himself on the Jena campus by snatching cigarettes from the mouths of smoking students. His institute therefore, not surprisingly, sought to combine both scientific and propagandist work.”

          “It was not the power of the tobacco industry that crushed Astel’s institute, but rather the defeat of Germany’s armies. The institute came to an end in the spring of 1945, when Astel committed suicide, recognizing his future in a post-Nazi world would not be a pleasant one. Astel had helped to organize the euthanasia operation that murdered some 200 000 mentally and physically disabled; he had also assisted in the ‘Final Solution of the Jewish Question’ as head of the Thüringia’s Office of Racial Affairs. Had he managed to survive the war, he most likely would have been tried as a war criminal.

          Astel had also made the Jena medical faculty a hotbed of Nazi activism—some instances of which can be seen in the highly questionable research promulgated under his reign.”
          http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/1/31.full

          Over to you, BB.

      • smokervoter says:

        Thanks Magnetic, you have just filled in a wording synapse I was experiencing the other day when I wrote this regarding what I personally see as another historic parallel to the present day anti-tobacco movement:

        “I’ve always seen similarities between the smokefree health purists and Jim Crow America.”

        It should have read “I’ve always seen similarities between smokefree-agitating health supremacists and Jim Crow America.

        It also fleshes out why “If you don’t smoke, you don’t pay the tax” strikes me (and apparently a great many non-smokers) as eerily reminiscent of a despicable slice of American history (along with eugenics) we hoped was deservedly assigned to the dustbin.

  16. harleyrider1978 says:

    Sock Puppets: How the government lobbies itself and why
    Christopher Snowdon 11 Jun 2012

    http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/sock-puppets-how-the-government-lobbies-itself-and-why

  17. Frank Davis says:

    OT maybe. It’s very easily done.

    British Prime Minister David Cameron’s office confirmed Monday that he accidentally left his 8-year-old daughter Nancy in a country pub after a family Sunday lunch.

    Officials said the incident happened “a couple of months ago,” as the family was leaving the pub near Chequers, a country house prime ministers use while in office, west of London.

    Nancy had gone to the bathroom while Cameron and the rest of the family piled into two cars to drive back to the house.

    Cameron was travelling in one car with his bodyguards and assumed that she was in the other car with his wife Samantha and two other children. Samantha assumed Nancy was with her father, and they only realized she was missing when they got home.

    In a statement, Cameron’s Downing Street office said “the prime minister and Samantha were distraught when they realized Nancy wasn’t with them. Thankfully when they phoned the pub she was there safe and well.”

    Why do we only hear about it from Canada?

  18. Begging bowl says:

    Damn right Nazis can be seperated from World medical opinion on health and smoking and of course the general public the world over who agree and who back these measures ,whilst you and try and cherry pick Arnott or Chapman or an obscure professor or health group as having some kind of Nazi agenda you ignore world medical opinion from every political system.

    The Nazi agenda link between health advice and smoking issues from individuals is as bonkers as it gets. it’s corrupt, dishonest and really makes you appear desperate to even bring the subject up in the first place.

    smokers do have rights and there are changes that should be made to the ban, i.e 95 year old ladies in care homes shouldn’t have to stand outside to have a fag!

    what do smoking trolls do for these little old ladies?, try and construct bonkers Nazi links, waterdown and dispute constantly the “smoking kills” theme discredit health professionals, and try make this government and i suppose every other country in the world have some kind of control your every thought and action hidden Nazi style agenda because of the smoking ban

    why has smokers rights become such a non-event?…it’s because of widespread support amongst smokers and non smokers and also the complete failure of lobbying.

    • Frank Davis says:

      OT, BB, but why do you use so many IP addresses?

      146.185.23.179

      95.170.128.58

      213.134.46.11

      91.149.131.238

      41.75.212.22

      213.134.46.11

      14.199.123.133

      Do you move around very quickly or something?

    • garyk30 says:

      “smokers do have rights and there are changes that should be made to the ban, i.e 95 year old ladies in care homes shouldn’t have to stand outside to have a fag!”

      How about 92 year old ladies or 93 year old men????

      How about those 90+ year olds being made to stand outside pubs to light up a fag?

      How about 70 year old men and women being made to stand outside pubs to light up a fag?

      How about a 40 year old veteran on crutches being made to stand outside pubs to light up a fag?

      Gary K.

    • beobrigitte says:

      Tactfully ignoring the first couple of paragraphs as, quite frankly, they are nonsensical, considering that the anti-smoking members of society adhere to a “denormalization programme attributed to the Nazis. Hope this does not cause offence.

      smokers do have rights and there are changes that should be made to the ban, i.e 95 year old ladies in care homes shouldn’t have to stand outside to have a fag!

      You fail to mention what these changes would be. Perhaps you should provide more details. Also, up to what age-group are these changes (please provide details!) to be applied?

      Tactfully ignoring the next paragraph.

      why has smokers rights become such a non-event?…it’s because of widespread support amongst smokers and non smokers and also the complete failure of lobbying.

      Quite frankly, If smoker’s rights are such a non-event, why do you bother? Of course it is you can believe that there is widespread support amongst smokers and non smokers and also the complete failure of lobbying.

    • harleyrider1978 says:

      Your here troll, so how could it be we are a complete failure except that we arent!

      Your Nazis thru and thru not only in historical context but probably before its over even in the total eugenics context! Nobody in Germany thought of hitler as anything but the chosen one in the beginning……Then came the slow incremental nazi state with far flung claims and policies turned into law……….One thing we arent is Ignorant to the historical record of what led to the holocaust…….I can tell ya we havent been Bullshitted by your side once ever,its the general public you aim to bullshit! And its the general public we aim to educate on that bullshit. Thats why you have decided to come down on the bloggers if you are in fact from TC which I have a few inclinations to believe you are as I cascade thru your IP numbers continent to continent!

      I make no qualms about my wherabouts in kentucky home of TOBACCO!

      Come and visit I will be glad to blow smoke in your face………NAZI

  19. garyk30 says:

    “waterdown and dispute constantly the “smoking kills” theme”

    “Smoking Kills” is only true if, and only if, no one else ever died from the diseases said to be ’caused’ by smoking.

    Data from Sir R.Doll’s ‘Doctor study’ shows that to be not true.
    98% of the deaths said to be ’caused’ by smoking would still have ocurred had the smokers never smoked.

    Mortality in relation to smoking: 50 years observations on male British doctors
    Doll et al

    Click to access bmj.38142.554479.AE.full.pdf

    Table 1, page 3
    This table lists the deaths from the 8 disease groups that are said to be caused by smoking and the total deaths.
    Non-smokers have 16.3 deaths from the smoking caused diseases out of a total of 19.38 deaths.
    ( that is 84%)
    Current smokers have 30.41 deaths from the smoking caused diseases out of a total of 35.4.
    (that is 86%)

    84 is 98% of 86!!!!!!!

    Gary K.

  20. garyk30 says:

    Doll is hardly what one would call a ‘smoker troll’!!!!

  21. Begging bowl says:

    you see Nazi and smoking kills watering down shite…you can’t help going bonkers daft extreme can you!

    i reckon those in care homes should not be expected to smoke outside. those in olde worlde type pubs should stand outside whilst there are still pubs around, pubs with grub won’t want smokers inside because diners aint going to put up with it like they used to.

    lobbying should concentrate on small victories instead of trying this world conspiracy of Nazi style thought control mixed in with smoking kills science is fake, although to be honest nobody actually says its totally fake they just muddy the waters and try and spread doubt on anything and everything which involves smoking.

    Lobbying failure you bet….last time on the BBC, your leader Simon clark wouldn’t admit smoking and driving was dangerous because there had been no studies on it!!…FFS, it’s this type of nonsense again with SHS which is the same!., its the bloody stink and the problems with breathing thats the issue with SHS , not how many particles in every million and all that crap.

    Its time some of you got your head out of your arses and stopped trying to outsmart solid world medical opinion thats untouchable and concentrated on what counts, making sure the smoking ban isnt as harsh as it is now.

    • beobrigitte says:

      Lobbying failure you bet….last time on the BBC, your leader Simon clark wouldn’t admit smoking and driving was dangerous because there had been no studies on it!!…FFS, it’s this type of nonsense again with SHS which is the same!., its the bloody stink and the problems with breathing thats the issue with SHS , not how many particles in every million and all that crap.

      Thank you for your professional insight. Please keep us informed.

    • Rose says:

      Vegetable Nicotine in ng/g g per 1µg nicotine
      Cauliflower 16.8 59.5
      Eggplant (Aubergine) 100.0 10
      Potatoes 7.1 140
      Green tomatoes 42.8 23.4
      Ripe tomatoes 4.3 233.0
      Pureed tomatoes 52.0 19.2
      http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/329/6/437

      ENVIRONMENTAL TOBACCO SMOKE –
      ESTIMATION OF ITS CONTRIBUTION TO RESPIRABLE SUSPENDED PARTICLES –
      METHOD BASED ON SOLANESOL DETERMINATION

      “Many plants of the Solanaceae family, which includes the genus Nicotiana, of which the tobacco
      plant is a member, contain solanesol; particularly those that contain trace amounts of nicotine.
      These include the tomato, eggplant, potato, and pepper.

      The potential interference due to these sources is negligible, cooking being the only likely potential source of interference. An interference of this type would bias results high, overestimating the contribution of ETS to RSP.

      Click to access CRM_52.pdf

      • Rose says:

        BB

        Now do you see why the correct science is so important?
        Never mind anything else, our staple foods are endangered by the very “science” you say we should all accept.

  22. Rose says:

    Charity sock puppetry: how government lobbies itself for more government, and we pay
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100164169/charity-sock-puppetry-how-government-lobbies-itself-for-more-government-and-we-pay/

    Government ‘fixing health consultations’ with taxpayer-funded groups – 2009

    “Earlier this month the Health Secretary, Alan Johnson, announced that the display of cigarettes and tobacco in shops would be banned in England and Wales from 2011.

    He added that people wanting to buy cigarettes from vending machines would in future have to show proof of age to obtain a token to activate the machine, and machines could be banned altogether in the future.

    Mr Johnson boasted that the display ban was favoured by an “overwhelming majority” of 96,000 responses to a six-month public consultation on the subject.

    Yet only a handful of those 96,000 respondents came from individuals submitting their personal views. Almost 70,000 came from those collected by pressure groups entirely funded by the Department for Health.

    Among the groups submitting block responses were SmokeFree NorthWest, SmokeFree Liverpool and SmokeFree North East, which were all set up by the Government to lobby against the tobacco industry”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/4076290/Government-fixing-health-consultations-with-taxpayer-funded-groups.html

  23. harleyrider1978 says:

    SOLID WORLD MEDICAL OPINION my ass!

    Smoking related diseases is a total fiction created to be a stepping stone to create fear IN SMOKERS.

    It aint worked has it……..theres as many smokers today as back in the 60s according to garys calculations and thats a long way from reduction ehh! So its much easier to manipulate by population growth as compared to actual numbers,but hey we understand you gotta game the system anyway ya can!

    you said;
    lobbying should concentrate on small victories instead of trying this world conspiracy of Nazi style thought control mixed in with smoking kills science is fake, although to be honest nobody actually says its totally fake they just muddy the waters and try and spread doubt on anything and everything which involves smoking.

    Sorry again when theres no proof to any disease entity from tobacco,what do you do?

    Create Epidemiology a science of statistics then create all kinds of new terminology to cover your ass and make your statements all so scientific when the fact is its voodoo magic that has been manipulated across the board.

    What you say,ya theres no scientific study proving the end points to disease causation in tobacco smoking at all.

    The Farce goes all the way back to the beginning in 1900 in the last round of tobacco prohibition,the same claims with nothing to back em up…..So they switched tactics and dawned white lab coats,created fake charities to push the agenda…….Same prohibitionists same game plan only a tad more incremental this go around ehh!

    Not 1 Death or Sickness Etiologically Assigned to Tobacco. All the diseases attributed to smoking are also present in non smokers. It means, in other words, that they are multifactorial, that is, the result of the interaction of tens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of factors, either known or suspected contributors – of which smoking can be one.

    Ya if you had proof the above wouldnt be the case……you could actually say CAUSES. But that dog has never ever been proven has it…………..

  24. Messalina says:

    Fascinating and most enjoyable conversation here. Certainly a lot of food for thought, still digesting it all!
    But back to the original post Frank, a very funny post and what a delightful scenario. I hope you do one day meet your Lana Del Rey.

  25. Give us ya money says:

    Here lies the problem with smoking lobbyists, Harleyrider is a 100% complete denial monger who would rather believe world medical opinion is a conspiracy to scare smokers, well you almost go the whole hog but sort of admit smoking is one contributor to deaths which in keeping with other denial mongers who never say smoking is harmless., i expect there is a degree of denial in most pro smoke bloggers but not to that extent.

    Keep going with this extreme nonsense and mix it in with Nazis social engineering and evil health workers who will meet a nasty end and ignore the solid public support for the smoking ban to be kept as it is.

    The failure of lobbying is because of Harelyrider and Frank Davis and others extreme views which drown out a more honest and moderate approach to getting the smoking ban changed.

    • harleyrider1978 says:

      Wheres ya proof not ya money!……………Being a moderate never changed anything now does it! You actually believe ASH is a moderate group LMMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      But I gather you admit there is no proof that smoking causes anything in anyone!

  26. garyk30 says:

    Dear “Give us ya money” and ‘Begging Bowl’,

    Are you claiming that Sir Richard Doll MD’s study of doctors for 50 years is full of ‘shite’?

    You will have to show evidence that this is true.

    Gary K.

  27. garyk30 says:

    Another amusing bit of data from this study:

    Current smokers of 25 or more cigarettes per day had a death rate from the diseases ’caused’ by smoking of about 83%.

    That is slightly LESS than the never-smokers!! :)
    Gary K.

  28. garyk30 says:

    Frank,
    E-mail me your regular mailing address and I will happily send you a check/cheque for $100(US).

    That should be worth at least a couple of pounds/euros or whatever monetary unit you are stuck with!!!!

    Gary K.

    • Frank Davis says:

      Another one! That’s very kind. $100 would almost pay for the mobile phone (cell phone) you can call me up on.

      I emailed you a few days back, but you don’t seem to have got the email.

  29. timbone says:

    Very good Frank, and only one mistake. Lana would not have a mobile, she would have a cell phone :-)

  30. don't let the nutters drown out moderate lobbying says:

    The proof is that smoking causes cancer is undisputed up by World medical opinion and i believe that proof to be the truth because doctors the world over are not lying to us because they want to put fear into smokers. there is endless proof, google is your friend.

    Garyk has some proof for you harley!!, read about Dr doll and what he says about deaths caused by cancer….lmao.

    this is lobbyists fail in action, one nutter plays down smoking to be almost harmless, another won’t believe smoking causes cancer but maybe contributes a little, the rest of the denial mongers believe smoking kills a a bit more than that but they need “choice”,,,meanwhile little old ladies stand outside in freezing temps at care homes because lobbying has failed, ..Nazis, armies blah blah blah…it’s a bloody joke.

    By the way harley i never mentioned ASH and moderation, i’m talking about lobbyists…actually!!!

    The nutters drown out honest moderate lobbying that’s why the so called media spokesman get all tongue tied when faced with awkward questions and make fools of themseleves trying to keep the nutters happy at the same time. if there is not a united front then the failure continues.

    Harleyrider you and Frank are pro smokers worst enemy.

    Tell em Frank in the pubs about your army with uniforms….lol

    • harleyrider1978 says:

      Like I said provide proof,doll provided no proof at all! Prove causation there bubba! There is no proof…….

    • Rose says:

      Moderate lobbying?

      You poor naive soul, you still believe that the public have a voice.
      I thought so too, that you could speak up and be listened to, that you were represented in parliament.

      Not so.

      Our previous government ratified the FCTC which includes this silencing instrument.

      Click to access article_5_3.pdf

      Going through the usual channels mean that you will be politely ignored, policy must not be altered even slightly by those who disagree.

      smokers do have rights and there are changes that should be made to the ban, i.e 95 year old ladies in care homes shouldn’t have to stand outside to have a fag!

      Condemned out of your own mouth.

      “No exemptions are justified on the basis of health or law arguments.”

      Article 8

      24. “This creates an obligation to provide universal protection by ensuring that all indoor public places, all indoor workplaces, all public transport and possibly other (outdoor or quasi-outdoor) public places are free from exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke.
      No exemptions are justified on the basis of health or law arguments.”

      Click to access art%208%20guidelines_english.pdf

  31. beobrigitte says:

    The proof is that smoking causes cancer is undisputed up by World medical opinion and i believe that proof to be the truth because doctors the world over are not lying to us because they want to put fear into smokers. there is endless proof, google is your friend.
    As said before, you are entitled to believe whatever you like.

    this is lobbyists fail in action, one nutter plays down smoking to be almost harmless, another won’t believe smoking causes cancer but maybe contributes a little, the rest of the denial mongers believe smoking kills a a bit more than that but they need “choice”,,,meanwhile little old ladies stand outside in freezing temps at care homes because lobbying has failed, ..Nazis, armies blah blah blah…it’s a bloody joke.

    As said before, if this is the case why bother commenting here?

    The nutters drown out honest moderate lobbying that’s why the so called media spokesman get all tongue tied when faced with awkward questions and make fools of themseleves trying to keep the nutters happy at the same time. if there is not a united front then the failure continues.

    Now there is something new. “MODERATE LOBBYING”. Enlighten us, please.
    It is not TC’s intention to accommodate e.g. little old ladies/men. TC is aiming for a smoke free world, regardless the cost.

  32. Kin_Free says:

    The tobacco CONTROL industry is bricking it. Frank and Harley in particular seem have got the anti-smoker nazis frightened. I am not sure if this tobacco CONTROL nutter of many names is being paid (probably) or if he/she/it is just a gullible fool – the net result however is to highlight how frightened and desperate they really are becoming.

    “The proof is that smoking causes cancer is undisputed up by World medical opinion and i believe…” (sic)

    “Belief’ is the preserve of religion – “World medical opinion” is an appeal to authority as in ‘the opinion of Cardinals, Bishops, Priests etc’ but ‘Proof’ needs to be able to stand up to scrutiny. The ‘proof’ quoted by anti-smoker priests is increasingly being exposed as fallacious. World medical opinion may well have been conned by anti-smoker nutters at one time but that is changing – many are rightly questioning the validity of their ‘proof’! That is why anti-smoker mercenaries have appeared here and on other pro-choice blogs and why the tobacco tactics website has appeared.

    It is true that pro-choice commentators do not ‘speak with one voice’ as to the level of risk or lack of risk relating to smoking, but that is one of their strengths. Widespread awareness of the anti-tobacco con trick is the first positive step, sorting out the specific details can come later. This fact also puts into perspective the tobacco CONTROL industry claim that all resistance to the anti-smoker deception is by the tobacco industry – If this was true, wouldn’t they all be ‘speaking as one’?

    Unlike Tobacco CONTROL employees, individual pro-choice commentators do not have to follow one script, prepared by some high priest that MUST be followed. They are not brainwashed to regurgitate specific lies to give those lies some false validity. They do not have to hail unquestioning and gullible support for the pseudo and fraudulent science that supports the anti-tobacco fraud. They are able to look at the evidence or lack of evidence – and expose it!

    Your fight, anti-smoker nazis, is not with the tobacco companies it is with THE PEOPLE and it is THE PEOPLE who will bring you down, not tobacco companies, but continue to make an appearance, the more I see you squirming, desperately trying to score points, the more that rational minds will see through you and the sooner you and your cohorts can be brought to book!

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